God's Loaded...
...but is it his intention that you be? Frank's raised this issue over at A Servant's Thoughts - its a topic that winds me up, so I thought I'd take a different spin on it here. Here's what some others have to say on the Prosperity Gospel...
"This idea that God wants everybody to be wealthy? There is a word for that: baloney. It's creating a false idol. You don't measure your self-worth by your net worth. I can show you millions of faithful followers of Christ who live in poverty. Why isn't everyone in the church a millionaire?" - Rick Warren
"Who would want to get in on something where you're miserable, poor, broke and ugly and you just have to muddle through until you get to heaven? I believe God wants to give us nice things." - Joyce Meyer
"We need to renounce the false gospel of wealth and health--it is a disease of our American culture; it is not a solution or answer to life's problems." - Ben Witherington
"I don't think I've ever preached a sermon about money. Does God want us to be rich? When I hear that word rich, I think people say, 'Well, he's preaching that everybody's going to be a millionaire.' I don't think that's it." I preach that anybody can improve their lives. I think God wants us to be prosperous. I think he wants us to be happy. To me, you need to have money to pay your bills. I think God wants us to send our kids to college. I think he wants us to be a blessing to other people. But I don't think I'd say God wants us to be rich. It's all relative, isn't it?" - Joel Osteen
"How many young people are going to be pointed to Osteen as a true shepherd of Jesus Christ? He's not. He's not one of us." - The Internet Monk (Michael Spencer)
"I'm a super being. Say it! Say it! Who's a super being? I walk in the realm of the supernatural. Say it!...You want to prosper? Money will be falling on you from left, right and centre. God will begin to prosper you; for money always follows righteousness....Say after me, everything I ever want is in me already." - Benny Hinn
"For what profit is it to a man, if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Jesus of Nazareth
16 comments:
I'm a super being!
I felt that I didn't really need to comment on any of these: they all spoke for themselves so well!
Benny makes for great comedy.
Hi BJ, where did you get the Benny Hinn comment from? The reason I ask is that it's so revolting and some people I know think he's harmless. It would be good to point this quote out to people but I'd need to be sure about the source. I'm not trying to call you out on this, I just want to use it and be sure of the source :)
Hi Andrew,
Here's the full quote:
Christians are 'Little Messiah's' and 'little gods' on the earth. Thus [Encouraging the audience]...say I am a God-man? This spirit-man within me is a God-man, say I'm born of heaven a God-man. I'm a God man. I am a sample of Jesus. I'm a super being. Say it! Say it! Who's a super being? I walk in the realm of the supernatural. Say it!...You want to prosper? Money will be falling on you from left, right and centre. God will begin to prosper you; for money always follows righteousness....Say after me, everything I ever want is in me already.
Source: Benn Hinn, on the Trinity Broadcasting Network, Dec. 6, 1990
I sourced this from http://www.apologeticsindex.org/h01ad.html
Hinn's own site is relatively sanitary on this subject, but from what I read about the conduct of his meetings and his broader Word of Faith theology, the quote seems pretty consistent.
To be honest I thought the OSteen quote was worse, just because I think Hinn is a nutter so you expect craziness from him in his meetings. But Osteen's comment equated the American dream with God's will for our lives - I find that more sinister than Hinn's ravings.
Thanks BJ for the link. I really like the way you juxtaposed the opposing quotes all coming from famous Christians. Yeah, I think you're right about Osteen's quote being a little more subtle and therefore a little more believable and therefore a little more dangerous. Although the "money always follows righteousness" quote is believable for some people... poor old Jesus eh - did he miss the boat on God's will or what!
He totally missed the blessing! Based on his itinerant, hand-to-mouth ministry he must have been under the oppression of an inter generational curse of poverty. That or he didn't name it and claim it, believe it and receive it, confess it and possess it, be healthy and wealthy...
Am I missing something? Is there some invisible Joel Osteen quote I'm not seeing? I have no clue who he is, and I'm as anti prosperity doctrine as any good socialist, but I struggle to see what is wrong with that quote. A
Hi Sharyn,
The problem I have with Osteen's quote is the subtle acceptability it holds for many people. In this quote he is equating the American dream of a prosperous, happy and financially secure life with God's will.
How many of the world's poor, including millions of sincere Christ followers, can afford to feed their kids, let alone send them to college?
As Osteen says (without any insight as to the irony) "It's relative, isn't it?"
"You see the nature and extent of truly Christian prudence so far as it relates to the use of that great talent, money. Gain all you can, without hurting either yourself or your neighbour, in soul or body, by applying hereto with unintermitted diligence, and with all the understanding which God has given you; -- save all you can, by cutting off every expense which serves only to indulge foolish desire; to gratify either the desire of flesh, the desire of the eye, or the pride of life; waste nothing, living or dying, on sin or folly, whether for yourself or your children; -- and then, give all you can, or, in other words, give all you have to God. Do not stint yourself...to this or that proportion. "Render unto God," not a tenth, not a third, not half, but all that is God's, be it more or less; by employing all on yourself, your household, the household of faith, and all mankind, in such a manner, that you may give a good account of your stewardship." - John Wesley
I'm a super being!
...it hasn't really been working for me.
Okay, but do you not think God wants everyone to be secure? I mean in every sense. I don't think God wants us all to be starving. That's why I'm beginning my career in development, because I want the world to be fair. Because, I want, as the scriptures say, "Everyone will live in peace and prosperity,enjoying their own grapevines and fig trees,for there will be nothing to fear". I do want people everywhere to be able to send their kids to university. AND I think that's what God wants to. The problem I have with the prosperity doctrine is that it ignores the fact that we are rich at the expense of the developing world. I get to go to University (in part) because a woman in Africa can't feed her kids. That's my problem. So when I read the Osteen guy, I can't find anything to disagree with. In that quote.
So, in short, I do think that "American dream" is God's will. I just happen to think it's God's will for every human, not just the American (and Kiwi) ones.
Glen - great quote - almost feeling bad I didn't put it in myself, but that's why we have you :)
Rhett - you are a super being and a very attractive man
Sharyn - I applaud your dream. I would say I think the dream can exist (as the Kingdom to come), be purused by people of good conscience and still not be God's will in the moment for a given person. But to stay with the prosperity topic and Osteen's comment:
"I preach that anybody can improve their lives."
Even within this quote Osteen's "think positive" and you'll be blessed mantra is readily apparent.
"I think God wants us to be prosperous. I think he wants us to be happy."
I think he wants us to be holy and whole, but not necessarily happy.
"To me, you need to have money to pay your bills. I think God wants us to send our kids to college."
That's the American dream not God's dream. More people in college in the developing world? Sure. But God's will for all. Can't see it.
Clarification of above: "purused" = "pursued"...makes a difference!
Yeah. I'm trying to think of something intelligent to say. However, it's not forthcoming.
I do, really, passionately hate the prosperity doctrine. It kind of incites madness in me. However, I think that other smart people do buy into it to some degree so I'm sure there's some kind of balance. I mean, no God doesn't primarily want us to be happy, I'm as C S Lewisian as the next bleeding heart. But I do think he wants us to be happy. And well fed. (Well, maybe not as well-fed as I am).
You know what? I just stayed up til 3:00 last night writing 8000 words on Monitoring and Evaluation. You wouldn't think there was that much to say would you?
Rambling.
I like your blog.
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